I'm not super confident about this theory (2 points isn't enough for an interpolation), but a hypothesis of mine is that Holy Beasts particularly the lower element ones might be based off the four beast described in Daniel 7. Copying straight from wikipedia, the four beasts are:
- A beast like a lion with eagle's wings. [v. 4]
- A beast like a bear, raised up on one side, with three ribs between its teeth. [v. 5]
- A beast like a leopard with four wings of fowl and four heads. [v. 6]
- A fourth beast, with large iron teeth and ten horns. [v. 7-8]
So what is the significance of this, each of the beasts is said to represent one of four great empires in the ancient world.
The 1st was the Babylonian empire which was renowned for being one of the first culturally unified empires, sparking the one of the world's first cultural renaissances. The Empire and its ruler were notorious rigid in their beliefs and values and intolerant of other religions.
The 2nd is the First Persian Empire. Unlike Babylon, the empire didn't care whether you followed their main religion. The rules were simple swear fealty to the Empire and then we'll leave you alone to rule themselves. The one thing they did prize above all else was the truth and to lie was considered the greatest sin.
The 3rd was the Macedonian Empire which was relatively chaotic to the say the least.
The 4th was the Roman Empire which was renowned for their architectural prowess.
Ooooh, that's an interesting idea. I suppose by extension the last of the four would be associated with some country in the East, or possibly a combination of countries.
I mean, the Leopard could be associated with some other place but I don't see Remiferia getting an arc (Akatsuki's got it covered, kinda). the parallels don't fit Arteria even if I wasn't convinced the Holy Nation is sitting on top of the Sept-Terrion of Time and there's no other area we know about that seems important enough to get its own arc. So, the East it probably is.
Vaguely related spoilers for the Hajimari trailer and Sept-Terrion theorizing.
My old theory regarding the Sept-Terrion and the Grandmaster took a huge hit with CS4's ending, since the Grandmaster and Society as a whole seem totally fine with not obtaining the Sept-Terrion, though there's that 'almost' line that leaves a bit of wiggle room. But amusingly the endpoint of the theory actually does seem to have been correct to an extent even if the premises it was based on weren't. xD
Anyhow, assuming that Lost Zem originally looked like a hammer of some description, we've still got a person (Demiourgos) and a selection of things that could have belonged to/been associated with a person (halo, box and hammer) so I'm sure there's something that can be made of that. I'm just not sure what it is right now.
@yotaka Yea, one idea I had a while ago is that East is made up of a collection of city-states which is why we haven't heard of any specific countries (besides maybe Longlai).
Edit: It reminds me of the Middle East, India, or China which were originally smaller countries or city-states until unified in the modern era.
SpoilerCS4/HajimariSomething I'm a little confused about regarding what we've seen in the new Hajimari trailer: assuming that mech was indeed the Great One, would there be a difference between it and the final boss from CS4? Obviously anything regarding Hajimari is just speculation, but was what we fight at the end of 4 not exactly the GO? I know it had Ishy's thought blob form mixed into it, so did that warp its shape or something?
Yeah, we've sort of gotten an explanation that covers this.
And while I'm thinking about it, per the big CS3 infodump the true body of the Great One was sealed away in the 'higher plane' while its power in the 'normal world' was divided into the vessels that became the Divine Knights. The way I took it (because it's not really detailed) the destruction of Ishmelga and the disappearance of the Knights cut the link between the realms so the Great One's higher-plane power wouldn't be able to connect to Zemuria and do anything there. And since Ishmelga's influence is gone it shouldn't be actively dangerous just sitting there. But if that link could be reestablished by, let's say, an Ishmelga/Rean fusion from another timeline somehow manifesting in Zemuria and there was a way to get at that higher-plane body...
Ahh thanks/sorry about the spoiler, totally forgot I wasn't posting in the pre-spoiler zero/ao discussion thread.
I thought the preview thing for Hajimari mentioned how Lapis was 'proud' to be a Homunculos. Guess it was just a doll, weird though because I never would have had the impression she was a homunculus to begin with.
I also find it weird how the game treats souls. Something about it just doesn't seem complete.
SpoilerCS4/HajimariIt's that wiggle room the GM left when she said it should be 'almost' impossible to have mankind make use of the power of Fire and Earth, isn't it? This feels like Murphy's Law squared, but then again that's what makes good conflict. By the way, regarding the scene in the Celestial Globe in CS4, does anybody know what it could mean that Mariabell calls the GM 'Ars Magna'? The Japanese voice track even has her saying it phonetically.
About the holy beasts and Daniel 7, the bible text surrounding the beasts is also pretty interesting.
"The first beast was like a lion with eagles’ wings. As I watched, its wings were pulled off, and it was left standing with its two hind feet on the ground, like a human being. And it was given a human mind."
Considering Roselia's exact condition this is a pretty significant coincidence... if it's a coincidence.
SpoilerCS4/HajimariIt's that wiggle room the GM left when she said it should be 'almost' impossible to have mankind make use of the power of Fire and Earth, isn't it? This feels like Murphy's Law squared, but then again that's what makes good conflict. By the way, regarding the scene in the Celestial Globe in CS4, does anybody know what it could mean that Mariabell calls the GM 'Ars Magna'? The Japanese voice track even has her saying it phonetically.
Yeah, that's the line I was thinking about. There's another interesting bit which I can't quite recall the source of that seems relevant.
For Mariabell's line, this is the second time she's used it. The first was in describing Azure Demiourgos as the Crois family's Ars Magna. It's Latin for 'Great Art' and is pretty clearly intended to be a play on the alchemical concept of the 'Great Work' that ends with the creation of the Philosopher's Stone. Both look similar in Japanese Per Ao and as clarified in Crossbell Archive, she uses the term to express the concept of creating something that transcended Aidios' own creation and would put power of divinity in human hands. As a result there's a few ways to interpret her usage in CS4; perhaps Mariabell thinks that the Grandmaster herself is some sort of transcendent entity like the one she'd previously tried to create.
About Kondo shenanigans
About Latin stuff
*Totally giddy that there is a substantial link between Demiourgos and GM*
About Latin stuff
SpoilerCS 4 Ending and AoThe Philosophers Stone was the first thing that came to mind, but as you already said with 'Great Work', it's Magnum Opus instead of Ars Magna, so I discarded this line of thinking at first. Then again, if the Crossbell Archives and Ao confirm that she used it for KeA and what she means by that, then... this is actually pretty good for certain GM theories including mine. Just one clarification: You said that both Great Art and Great Work look similar in Japanese per Ao. Were both terms used and contrasted with each other? Or how were they worked into the text?*Totally giddy that there is a substantial link between Demiourgos and GM*
Yeah, it's a case of using the spirit of the word but not the strict letter of it.
Related to this, the word Mariabell uses is also employed in Japanese translations of some hermetic texts, which incorporated the idea of the Great Work. So it seems they were aiming for that imagery even if they didn't use exactly the same words for it. For all I know, they thought that Ars sounded better than Opus because of its link to Arts. xD
Oh, speaking of this I don't want to go too deep down the rabbit hole right now for fear I won't be able to find my way back out (and I need to do more reading on the topic anyways) but I got absolutely giddy when last week's screenshots came out because Lapis' weapon name makes for some very interesting speculation-fodder. It's 'Rosenkreuz', which is the name of the allegorical founder of the Rosicrucians, who had a serious thing for alchemy. And one of the expressions used to refer to the Holy Grail as a representation of the Philosopher's Stone is lapis exillis. Yeah, I don't think that's a coincidence...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Falcom/comments/hi5kd2/possible_biblical_influence_for_the_holy_beasts/
Decided to post a draft of a potential Holy Beast theory to the subreddit. Spoiler warnings for Sen IV.
SpoilerCS4/HajimariSomething I'm a little confused about regarding what we've seen in the new Hajimari trailer: assuming that mech was indeed the Great One, would there be a difference between it and the final boss from CS4? Obviously anything regarding Hajimari is just speculation, but was what we fight at the end of 4 not exactly the GO? I know it had Ishy's thought blob form mixed into it, so did that warp its shape or something?Yeah, we've sort of gotten an explanation that covers this.
SpoilerCS4/Hajimari speculationAlberich warns Osborne that he's starting the final Rivalry too soon and that the resulting reformation of the Great One will be incomplete. Osborne brushes it off without making it too obvious that's precisely why he's doing it, with the end result that Ishmelga Loge was never the full power of the Great One, but it was enough to enable Rean and the rest to permanently destroy the eldritch 'thoughtform'. Franz' comment just before the fight suggests that we only saw about a tenth of its total power in that fight, so the 'real deal' would be much more dangerous.And while I'm thinking about it, per the big CS3 infodump the true body of the Great One was sealed away in the 'higher plane' while its power in the 'normal world' was divided into the vessels that became the Divine Knights. The way I took it (because it's not really detailed) the destruction of Ishmelga and the disappearance of the Knights cut the link between the realms so the Great One's higher-plane power wouldn't be able to connect to Zemuria and do anything there. And since Ishmelga's influence is gone it shouldn't be actively dangerous just sitting there. But if that link could be reestablished by, let's say, an Ishmelga/Rean fusion from another timeline somehow manifesting in Zemuria and there was a way to get at that higher-plane body...
On a different note, I'll be curious to see what the general opinion on Osborne will be with the populace after everything that happened. Do we get an idea of how at least Rean feels on the matter at the end? They seemed to reconcile somewhat, looking at their interaction.
About Rosicrucians
This topic is everything but straightforward. In fact I detect a marked difference in tone between English sources and German ones, though I'm not yet ready to make a value judgement on why the German sources show a clear avoidance of mentioning or committing to the more 'occult' aspects of this... well, what to even call it exactly? An order? A spiritual movement? A cultural meme, when memes weren't a word yet?
Inside this morass of partly contradictory accounts and opinions two things jump out to me. First is of course that allegorical founder Christian Rosenkreuz, whose name was hidden behind the acronym of C.R. in the first manifesto fama fraternalis, which kicked off the whole Rosenkreuz phenomenon in the first place. I mean, when locking at the 3rd party in Hajimari, Nadia and Swin are shown as one pair, while <C> and Lapis are implied to also have some kind of connection. And with this Rosenkreuz connection found, I'm not sure anymore whether this <C> acronym really is something as straightforward as the first letter of the name of the guy (or gal) behind the mask. Would be the ultimate red herring that the letter would follow another kind of logic.
There's also the fact that the name Christian is a clear reference to Christ himself, so I'm not really surprised that there is a connection between the Holy Grail and the fixation of that allegorical founder on alchemy. What I find more important though is that the existence of Christ is of course tied to his resurrection and looking at a Rosenberg Doll that exhibits independent conscious thought and perhaps even sapience, I'm now more sure that Lapis is a vessel that houses the soul of a person who died once. And about the Philosopher Stone itself, I thought for the longest time that transforming lesser metals to gold and making the Elixir of Life was its main function. But in truth it has a really long list of ascribed properties among them turning lesser crystals into precious stones (wouldn't that be a nifty function in Zemuria?) and the creation of clones or homunculi - and here I thought tying Crois Alchemy to homunculus creation was Falcom imitating Full Metal Alchemist which in turn did some creative liberties on the topic. Shows what I know and to not trust J.K Rowling to give me the whole picture.
Last I want to give another shot at C's identity though it feels like I'm simply throwing stuff at the wall until something sticks. And it's highly circumstantial even for a Crack hypothesis. Well, C is alternate dimension Jusis. As I already mentioned, I'm starting to doubt that the letter really is just the first letter of the name behind the mask and if Lapis actually houses the soul of alternate dimension Millium (a theory I expressed at an earlier point) some interactions especially in the latest trailer make an interesting amount of sense. The height fits. The weapon fits. The trousers fits. Him fixating on Rufus fits. And this implied connection to Lapis also fits if she is indeed alternate dimension Millium's soul extracted from the Sword of Demise and stuffed into a Rosenberg Doll. Or perhaps alternate-dimension-Sword-of-Demise was stuffed wholesale into the doll to make things even more messed up. And I can't help but wish that the scene with C rough-handling Lapis in the trailer and her complaining that he isn't treating her properly like a lady ends up an ironic echo of Jusis complaining to Millium to behave more ladylike in CS3 - while he's being facehugged by her.
SpoilerCS4A tenth?! Considering how many people it took to bring it down, that's pretty wild. I'm starting to see why we've got nearly half of the Dominion swooping in for the assist.On a different note, I'll be curious to see what the general opinion on Osborne will be with the populace after everything that happened. Do we get an idea of how at least Rean feels on the matter at the end? They seemed to reconcile somewhat, looking at their interaction.
We've got some ideas thanks to the CS4 ending.
What basically seems to have happened is that Osborne got thrown under the proverbial bus and was assigned all the blame that could be given to him. This left the Emperor in a stronger position to end the hostilities since he could disavow everything that happened after he was shot. The people who knew the truth weren't going to contradict the official story since the Emperor coming out and revealing that the nation had been living with a curse for over a thousand years (and by the way, we've known about it since forever and kept it secret) would have just made matters worse. Keeping the public perception of the house of Arnor positive was a huge thing, since Olivier and Alfin are noted to have played a huge part in calming internal tensions in the aftermath.
At the end of the day, Erebonia has a more politically active and empowered citizen body, the nobility have been dragged into the modern era (albeit kicking and screaming) and the next generation of their leaders are much more enlightened in the historical sense and thus unlikely to try and turn back the clock once they take over the reins. I don't think Osborne would mind too much, since he accomplished his goals and left Erebonia in a better long-term social position.
As for Rean, yeah, he and Osborne do reconcile at the end. Rean even calls him 'father' for the first and only time.
@Ghaleon Just as a heads-up, I've added a spoiler tag to your post for anyone who's avoiding that sort of thing.
Not quite right, it looks like. Aren't there Cold Steel spoilers in there also? (It's been a long time since I played 1 and 2, so I'm not sure if it's from 3 (which I haven't played) or not).