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Hellseye
Posts: 79
Kiseki Crack Editor
 

I'm not super confident about this theory (2 points isn't enough for an interpolation), but a hypothesis of mine is that Holy Beasts particularly the lower element ones might be based off the four beast described in Daniel 7. Copying straight from wikipedia, the four beasts are: 

  1. A beast like a lion with eagle's wings. [v. 4]
  2. A beast like a bear, raised up on one side, with three ribs between its teeth. [v. 5]
  3. A beast like a leopard with four wings of fowl and four heads. [v. 6]
  4. A fourth beast, with large iron teeth and ten horns. [v. 7-8]

Spoiler
Sen IV
Sen IV reveals that Holy Beast of Fire is the Winged Lion and I can't really find any other mythological text that a describes anything similar. Algres, in both his Nameless One and true form fit the description of the fourth beast. The teeth definitely fit (they broke a Zemurian Ore sword), but I've had a lot of disagreement over the horns so I went back and counted the glowing antlers on both forms and its exactly 10.  

So what is the significance of this, each of the beasts is said to represent one of four great empires in the ancient world. 

The 1st was the Babylonian empire which was renowned for being one of the first culturally unified empires, sparking the one of the world's first cultural renaissances. The Empire and its ruler were notorious rigid in their beliefs and values and intolerant of other religions.

The 2nd is the First Persian Empire. Unlike Babylon, the empire didn't care whether you followed their main religion. The rules were simple swear fealty to the Empire and then we'll leave you alone to rule themselves. The one thing they did prize above all else was the truth and to lie was considered the greatest sin. 

The 3rd was the Macedonian Empire which was relatively chaotic to the say the least.

The 4th was the Roman Empire which was renowned for their architectural prowess. 

Spoiler
Sen IV
While the Empires don't exactly match the Tribes or Fire and Earth (We don't know enough about either of them anyway), the Babylonian Empire could be described as an Empire founded on the unified Spirit i.e. culture, religion, values, etc and the Roman Empire could be described as Greatest Empire built by the hands of man i.e. the body. The Erebonian Empire itself is almost a combination of the two with its strong cultural pride and unmatched industrial prowess.   

Spoiler
Full Series
If Falcom is using this as their influence and continues to do so in future arcs, then I would expect that Calvard's Holy Beast would be the Bear since it's almost guaranteed that Truth and Lies will be a major theme of its arc.

 
Posted : 28/06/2020 3:34 pm
Yotaka
Posts: 395
Falcom Romantic Admin
Topic starter
 

Ooooh, that's an interesting idea. I suppose by extension the last of the four would be associated with some country in the East, or possibly a combination of countries.

Spoiler
Implicit CS4 spoilers
We know basically nothing about the political situation east of Calvard but 'chaotic' would certainly describe the geological situation that's pushing a westward exodus. Hmmm, if there's something to the theory I could totally see Falcom drawing a historical parallel to Macedon where a pre-Collapse civilization expanded greatly after obtaining its Sept-Terrion and then fragmented after it was lost, having grown too large to maintain itself. Also probably too dependent on whatever power their Sept-Terrion granted, since that's been something of a theme so far.

I mean, the Leopard could be associated with some other place but I don't see Remiferia getting an arc (Akatsuki's got it covered, kinda). the parallels don't fit Arteria even if I wasn't convinced the Holy Nation is sitting on top of the Sept-Terrion of Time and there's no other area we know about that seems important enough to get its own arc. So, the East it probably is.

Vaguely related spoilers for the Hajimari trailer and Sept-Terrion theorizing.

Spoiler
CS4 Ending
The appearance of what I think is the 'true' form of the Great One has me hoping that we'll see the original forms of Ark Rouge and Lost Zem, if only in a flashback as with the original Demiourgos. It would be a lot easier to theorize about the future Sept-Terrion if we had a firm idea what those looked like, or at least the latter since the name and its 'Great Black Hammer' description don't fit with one another while Ark Rouge's does.

My old theory regarding the Sept-Terrion and the Grandmaster took a huge hit with CS4's ending, since the Grandmaster and Society as a whole seem totally fine with not obtaining the Sept-Terrion, though there's that 'almost' line that leaves a bit of wiggle room. But amusingly the endpoint of the theory actually does seem to have been correct to an extent even if the premises it was based on weren't. xD

Anyhow, assuming that Lost Zem originally looked like a hammer of some description, we've still got a person (Demiourgos) and a selection of things that could have belonged to/been associated with a person (halo, box and hammer) so I'm sure there's something that can be made of that. I'm just not sure what it is right now.

 
Posted : 28/06/2020 4:43 pm
Hellseye
Posts: 79
Kiseki Crack Editor
 

@yotaka Yea, one idea I had a while ago is that East is made up of a collection of city-states which is why we haven't heard of any specific countries (besides maybe Longlai). 

Edit: It reminds me of the Middle East, India, or China which were originally smaller countries or city-states until unified in the modern era. 

 
Posted : 28/06/2020 7:40 pm
JumpyJunpei
Posts: 249
Member
 

Spoiler
CS4/Hajimari
Something I'm a little confused about regarding what we've seen in the new Hajimari trailer: assuming that mech was indeed the Great One, would there be a difference between it and the final boss from CS4? Obviously anything regarding Hajimari is just speculation, but was what we fight at the end of 4 not exactly the GO? I know it had Ishy's thought blob form mixed into it, so did that warp its shape or something?

 
Posted : 28/06/2020 11:27 pm
Yotaka
Posts: 395
Falcom Romantic Admin
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @jumpyjunpei

Spoiler
CS4/Hajimari
Something I'm a little confused about regarding what we've seen in the new Hajimari trailer: assuming that mech was indeed the Great One, would there be a difference between it and the final boss from CS4? Obviously anything regarding Hajimari is just speculation, but was what we fight at the end of 4 not exactly the GO? I know it had Ishy's thought blob form mixed into it, so did that warp its shape or something?

Yeah, we've sort of gotten an explanation that covers this.

Spoiler
CS4/Hajimari speculation
Alberich warns Osborne that he's starting the final Rivalry too soon and that the resulting reformation of the Great One will be incomplete. Osborne brushes it off without making it too obvious that's precisely why he's doing it, with the end result that Ishmelga Loge was never the full power of the Great One, but it was enough to enable Rean and the rest to permanently destroy the eldritch 'thoughtform'. Franz' comment just before the fight suggests that we only saw about a tenth of its total power in that fight, so the 'real deal' would be much more dangerous.

And while I'm thinking about it, per the big CS3 infodump the true body of the Great One was sealed away in the 'higher plane' while its power in the 'normal world' was divided into the vessels that became the Divine Knights. The way I took it (because it's not really detailed) the destruction of Ishmelga and the disappearance of the Knights cut the link between the realms so the Great One's higher-plane power wouldn't be able to connect to Zemuria and do anything there. And since Ishmelga's influence is gone it shouldn't be actively dangerous just sitting there. But if that link could be reestablished by, let's say, an Ishmelga/Rean fusion from another timeline somehow manifesting in Zemuria and there was a way to get at that higher-plane body...

 
Posted : 29/06/2020 12:48 am
Posts: 152
Member
 

Ahh thanks/sorry about the spoiler, totally forgot I wasn't posting in the pre-spoiler zero/ao discussion thread.

I thought the preview thing for Hajimari mentioned how Lapis was 'proud' to be a Homunculos. Guess it was just a doll, weird though because I never would have had the impression she was a homunculus to begin with.

I also find it weird how the game treats souls. Something about it just doesn't seem complete.

 
Posted : 29/06/2020 4:30 am
Wuolong77
Posts: 128
Member
 
Posted by: @yotaka
 
Yeah, we've sort of gotten an explanation that covers this.
 
Spoiler
CS4/Hajimari speculation
And while I'm thinking about it, per the big CS3 infodump the true body of the Great One was sealed away in the 'higher plane' while its power in the 'normal world' was divided into the vessels that became the Divine Knights. The way I took it (because it's not really detailed) the destruction of Ishmelga and the disappearance of the Knights cut the link between the realms so the Great One's higher-plane power wouldn't be able to connect to Zemuria and do anything there. And since Ishmelga's influence is gone it shouldn't be actively dangerous just sitting there. But if that link could be reestablished by, let's say, an Ishmelga/Rean fusion from another timeline somehow manifesting in Zemuria and there was a way to get at that higher-plane body...

Spoiler
CS4/Hajimari
It's that wiggle room the GM left when she said it should be 'almost' impossible to have mankind make use of the power of Fire and Earth, isn't it? This feels like Murphy's Law squared, but then again that's what makes good conflict. By the way, regarding the scene in the Celestial Globe in CS4, does anybody know what it could mean that Mariabell calls the GM 'Ars Magna'? The Japanese voice track even has her saying it phonetically.

About the holy beasts and Daniel 7, the bible text surrounding the beasts is also pretty interesting.

Spoiler
CS4 and full series

"The first beast was like a lion with eagles’ wings. As I watched, its wings were pulled off, and it was left standing with its two hind feet on the ground, like a human being. And it was given a human mind."

Considering Roselia's exact condition this is a pretty significant coincidence... if it's a coincidence.

"Then in my vision that night, I saw a fourth beast—terrifying, dreadful, and very strong. It devoured and crushed its victims with huge iron teeth and trampled their remains beneath its feet. It was different from any of the other beasts, and it had ten horns.
As I was looking at the horns, suddenly another small horn appeared among them. Three of the first horns were torn out by the roots to make room for it. This little horn had eyes like human eyes and a mouth that was boasting arrogantly."
 
While I have difficulty counting the horns, because the passage never specifies that the horns need to sprout from the head and there are several ways to count them to fit the number (count the horns sprouting from the body, too, or take each branch of the glowing antler or include the horns beside the antler etc.), the additional description of the beast is reminiscent of what happens in the story. And when I read a human eye sprouting out of the horn and a mouth that boasts, I can't help but think of Ishmelga's thoughtform.
 
All in all, I think this is a pretty good find.
 
Here are the passages for the other two beasts, for further theory crafting.
 
"Then I saw a second beast, and it looked like a bear. It was rearing up on one side, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And I heard a voice saying to it, “Get up! Devour the flesh of many people!”
 
"Then the third of these strange beasts appeared, and it looked like a leopard. It had four bird’s wings on its back, and it had four heads. Great authority was given to this beast."
 
Posted : 29/06/2020 5:00 am
Yotaka
Posts: 395
Falcom Romantic Admin
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @wuolong77

Spoiler
CS4/Hajimari
It's that wiggle room the GM left when she said it should be 'almost' impossible to have mankind make use of the power of Fire and Earth, isn't it? This feels like Murphy's Law squared, but then again that's what makes good conflict. By the way, regarding the scene in the Celestial Globe in CS4, does anybody know what it could mean that Mariabell calls the GM 'Ars Magna'? The Japanese voice track even has her saying it phonetically.

Yeah, that's the line I was thinking about. There's another interesting bit which I can't quite recall the source of that seems relevant.

Spoiler
CS4 Ending
Somewhere, Kondo seemed to imply that all the Sept-Terrion might return later. I wonder if the dual nature of the Great One has something to do with this, and it might mean that part of the reason that Ouroboros doesn't care what happens to the Sept-Terrion is that if they actually need the things directly, they probably know how to get at them even if nobody else can. The Ouroboros Report drama cd at least implies that Aureole is necessary for... something. But I want to find the original source for this first.

For Mariabell's line, this is the second time she's used it. The first was in describing Azure Demiourgos as the Crois family's Ars Magna. It's Latin for 'Great Art' and is pretty clearly intended to be a play on the alchemical concept of the 'Great Work' that ends with the creation of the Philosopher's Stone. Both look similar in Japanese Per Ao and as clarified in Crossbell Archive, she uses the term to express the concept of creating something that transcended Aidios' own creation and would put power of divinity in human hands. As a result there's a few ways to interpret her usage in CS4; perhaps Mariabell thinks that the Grandmaster herself is some sort of transcendent entity like the one she'd previously tried to create.

 
Posted : 29/06/2020 7:38 am
Wuolong77
Posts: 128
Member
 

About Kondo shenanigans

Spoiler
CS4, all games
Huh, I wasn't aware of this hint, but then again I'm not nearly as familiar with all of Kondo's interviews. As for the Aureole, I think I've read it mentioned in one of the many Crack theories, but the Space Septerrion as the ultimate creating tool combined with the know-how of the Primordial Alchemist equals potential ability to create copies of Septerrions that are indiscernible from the originals. Of course, if Kondo really made a comment like that, it would fuel this line of thinking.

About Latin stuff

Spoiler
CS 4 Ending and Ao
The Philosophers Stone was the first thing that came to mind, but as you already said with 'Great Work', it's Magnum Opus instead of Ars Magna, so I discarded this line of thinking at first. Then again, if the Crossbell Archives and Ao confirm that she used it for KeA and what she means by that, then... this is actually pretty good for certain GM theories including mine. Just one clarification: You said that both Great Art and Great Work look similar in Japanese per Ao. Were both terms used and contrasted with each other? Or how were they worked into the text?

*Totally giddy that there is a substantial link between Demiourgos and GM*

 
Posted : 29/06/2020 2:16 pm
Yotaka
Posts: 395
Falcom Romantic Admin
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @wuolong77

About Latin stuff

Spoiler
CS 4 Ending and Ao
The Philosophers Stone was the first thing that came to mind, but as you already said with 'Great Work', it's Magnum Opus instead of Ars Magna, so I discarded this line of thinking at first. Then again, if the Crossbell Archives and Ao confirm that she used it for KeA and what she means by that, then... this is actually pretty good for certain GM theories including mine. Just one clarification: You said that both Great Art and Great Work look similar in Japanese per Ao. Were both terms used and contrasted with each other? Or how were they worked into the text?

*Totally giddy that there is a substantial link between Demiourgos and GM*

Yeah, it's a case of using the spirit of the word but not the strict letter of it.

Spoiler
Ao/CS4, bonus Hajimari crack
The Japanese renderings aren't contrasted with each other inside the work, it's just how they're written. In both instances where Mariabell says 'Ars Magna' it's as furigana over 大いなる秘法, literally 'The Great Secret (Method)'. The Japanese rendering for Magnum Opus in the alchemical sense is 大いなる業. Considering the furigana, you have the same underlying Japanese construction used for the Latin words magna and magnum and in the same position regardless of how you'd order the Latin words. So the two concepts look very similar in Japanese even though they don't in the original Latin.

Related to this, the word Mariabell uses is also employed in Japanese translations of some hermetic texts, which incorporated the idea of the Great Work. So it seems they were aiming for that imagery even if they didn't use exactly the same words for it. For all I know, they thought that Ars sounded better than Opus because of its link to Arts. xD

Oh, speaking of this I don't want to go too deep down the rabbit hole right now for fear I won't be able to find my way back out (and I need to do more reading on the topic anyways) but I got absolutely giddy when last week's screenshots came out because Lapis' weapon name makes for some very interesting speculation-fodder. It's 'Rosenkreuz', which is the name of the allegorical founder of the Rosicrucians, who had a serious thing for alchemy. And one of the expressions used to refer to the Holy Grail as a representation of the Philosopher's Stone is lapis exillis. Yeah, I don't think that's a coincidence...

 
Posted : 29/06/2020 4:39 pm
Hellseye
Posts: 79
Kiseki Crack Editor
 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Falcom/comments/hi5kd2/possible_biblical_influence_for_the_holy_beasts/

Decided to post a draft of a potential Holy Beast theory to the subreddit. Spoiler warnings for Sen IV. 

 
Posted : 29/06/2020 6:34 pm
JumpyJunpei
Posts: 249
Member
 
Posted by: @yotaka
Posted by: @jumpyjunpei

Spoiler
CS4/Hajimari
Something I'm a little confused about regarding what we've seen in the new Hajimari trailer: assuming that mech was indeed the Great One, would there be a difference between it and the final boss from CS4? Obviously anything regarding Hajimari is just speculation, but was what we fight at the end of 4 not exactly the GO? I know it had Ishy's thought blob form mixed into it, so did that warp its shape or something?

Yeah, we've sort of gotten an explanation that covers this.

Spoiler
CS4/Hajimari speculation
Alberich warns Osborne that he's starting the final Rivalry too soon and that the resulting reformation of the Great One will be incomplete. Osborne brushes it off without making it too obvious that's precisely why he's doing it, with the end result that Ishmelga Loge was never the full power of the Great One, but it was enough to enable Rean and the rest to permanently destroy the eldritch 'thoughtform'. Franz' comment just before the fight suggests that we only saw about a tenth of its total power in that fight, so the 'real deal' would be much more dangerous.

And while I'm thinking about it, per the big CS3 infodump the true body of the Great One was sealed away in the 'higher plane' while its power in the 'normal world' was divided into the vessels that became the Divine Knights. The way I took it (because it's not really detailed) the destruction of Ishmelga and the disappearance of the Knights cut the link between the realms so the Great One's higher-plane power wouldn't be able to connect to Zemuria and do anything there. And since Ishmelga's influence is gone it shouldn't be actively dangerous just sitting there. But if that link could be reestablished by, let's say, an Ishmelga/Rean fusion from another timeline somehow manifesting in Zemuria and there was a way to get at that higher-plane body...

Spoiler
CS4
A tenth?! Considering how many people it took to bring it down, that's pretty wild. I'm starting to see why we've got nearly half of the Dominion swooping in for the assist.

On a different note, I'll be curious to see what the general opinion on Osborne will be with the populace after everything that happened. Do we get an idea of how at least Rean feels on the matter at the end? They seemed to reconcile somewhat, looking at their interaction.

 
Posted : 30/06/2020 4:19 pm
Wuolong77
Posts: 128
Member
 

About Rosicrucians

Spoiler
Hajimari and CS4
Well, this is an interesting angle to say the least. I also did some digging and while my first reaction to your post was along the line of rabbit holes being part of the Kiseki fun, I can now understand why you want to do more reading on the matter.

This topic is everything but straightforward. In fact I detect a marked difference in tone between English sources and German ones, though I'm not yet ready to make a value judgement on why the German sources show a clear avoidance of mentioning or committing to the more 'occult' aspects of this... well, what to even call it exactly? An order? A spiritual movement? A cultural meme, when memes weren't a word yet?

Inside this morass of partly contradictory accounts and opinions two things jump out to me. First is of course that allegorical founder Christian Rosenkreuz, whose name was hidden behind the acronym of C.R. in the first manifesto fama fraternalis, which kicked off the whole Rosenkreuz phenomenon in the first place. I mean, when locking at the 3rd party in Hajimari, Nadia and Swin are shown as one pair, while <C> and Lapis are implied to also have some kind of connection. And with this Rosenkreuz connection found, I'm not sure anymore whether this <C> acronym really is something as straightforward as the first letter of the name of the guy (or gal) behind the mask. Would be the ultimate red herring that the letter would follow another kind of logic.

There's also the fact that the name Christian is a clear reference to Christ himself, so I'm not really surprised that there is a connection between the Holy Grail and the fixation of that allegorical founder on alchemy. What I find more important though is that the existence of Christ is of course tied to his resurrection and looking at a Rosenberg Doll that exhibits independent conscious thought and perhaps even sapience, I'm now more sure that Lapis is a vessel that houses the soul of a person who died once. And about the Philosopher Stone itself, I thought for the longest time that transforming lesser metals to gold and making the Elixir of Life was its main function. But in truth it has a really long list of ascribed properties among them turning lesser crystals into precious stones (wouldn't that be a nifty function in Zemuria?) and the creation of clones or homunculi - and here I thought tying Crois Alchemy to homunculus creation was Falcom imitating Full Metal Alchemist which in turn did some creative liberties on the topic. Shows what I know and to not trust J.K Rowling to give me the whole picture.

Last I want to give another shot at C's identity though it feels like I'm simply throwing stuff at the wall until something sticks. And it's highly circumstantial even for a Crack hypothesis. Well, C is alternate dimension Jusis. As I already mentioned, I'm starting to doubt that the letter really is just the first letter of the name behind the mask and if Lapis actually houses the soul of alternate dimension Millium (a theory I expressed at an earlier point) some interactions especially in the latest trailer make an interesting amount of sense. The height fits. The weapon fits. The trousers fits. Him fixating on Rufus fits. And this implied connection to Lapis also fits if she is indeed alternate dimension Millium's soul extracted from the Sword of Demise and stuffed into a Rosenberg Doll. Or perhaps alternate-dimension-Sword-of-Demise was stuffed wholesale into the doll to make things even more messed up. And I can't help but wish that the scene with C rough-handling Lapis in the trailer and her complaining that he isn't treating her properly like a lady ends up an ironic echo of Jusis complaining to Millium to behave more ladylike in CS3 - while he's being facehugged by her.

 
Posted : 30/06/2020 7:57 pm
Yotaka reacted
Yotaka
Posts: 395
Falcom Romantic Admin
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @jumpyjunpei

Spoiler
CS4
A tenth?! Considering how many people it took to bring it down, that's pretty wild. I'm starting to see why we've got nearly half of the Dominion swooping in for the assist.

On a different note, I'll be curious to see what the general opinion on Osborne will be with the populace after everything that happened. Do we get an idea of how at least Rean feels on the matter at the end? They seemed to reconcile somewhat, looking at their interaction.

We've got some ideas thanks to the CS4 ending.

Spoiler
CS4
The Empire got hit by trouble from both directions internally after Osborne's death, first from nobles who thought they had a chance to act quickly and take back some of their ancient privileges and then from the masses who opposed that. The Imperial Family also got hit with some resentment due to Cedric's role in events and the way he completely vanished afterwards.

What basically seems to have happened is that Osborne got thrown under the proverbial bus and was assigned all the blame that could be given to him. This left the Emperor in a stronger position to end the hostilities since he could disavow everything that happened after he was shot. The people who knew the truth weren't going to contradict the official story since the Emperor coming out and revealing that the nation had been living with a curse for over a thousand years (and by the way, we've known about it since forever and kept it secret) would have just made matters worse. Keeping the public perception of the house of Arnor positive was a huge thing, since Olivier and Alfin are noted to have played a huge part in calming internal tensions in the aftermath.

At the end of the day, Erebonia has a more politically active and empowered citizen body, the nobility have been dragged into the modern era (albeit kicking and screaming) and the next generation of their leaders are much more enlightened in the historical sense and thus unlikely to try and turn back the clock once they take over the reins. I don't think Osborne would mind too much, since he accomplished his goals and left Erebonia in a better long-term social position.

As for Rean, yeah, he and Osborne do reconcile at the end. Rean even calls him 'father' for the first and only time.

 
Posted : 30/06/2020 9:41 pm
Posts: 16
Member
 
Posted by: @yotaka

@Ghaleon Just as a heads-up, I've added a spoiler tag to your post for anyone who's avoiding that sort of thing.

Not quite right, it looks like.  Aren't there Cold Steel spoilers in there also?  (It's been a long time since I played 1 and 2, so I'm not sure if it's from 3 (which I haven't played) or not).

 
Posted : 08/07/2020 6:36 pm
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