So for the last nine months or so I've been trying to figure out if there is some connection to the locked orbment slots in the Sen arc and the personality of the characters, and I think now I finally have it. Each character has two elements, one with two slots and one with a single slot. The double slotted element corresponds to the dominant personality trait of the character whereas the single slotted element is what motivates them. If you read through any of the new theories (mostly Latte's and mine), a pretty common theme is that the lower elements correspond to the Tarot variation of the Greek alchemical system of elements (Fire=Spirit, Earth=Body, Wind=Mind, Water=Emotions). In my previous theory about the higher elements, I argue that the higher elements equate to Hindu Trimuriti which is that Space is Brahma the creator (passion/creativity), Mirage is Vishnu the maintainer (goodness/innocence), and Time is Shiva the destroyer (darkness).
In terms of personality traits this would be,
Earth = Doers, people who are quick to act
Water = Empathizers
Fire = Stubborn, Strong-willed, uncompromising
Wind = Aloof, airheaded, introspective
Time = Despair, Depression, doubt, etc.
Space = Passionate, creative, maybe prideful
Mirage = nice, kind, helpful, innocent
And for motivations,
Earth = Protecting something tangible such friend or family
Water = obviously their feelings
Fire = a sense of duty or responsibility
Wind = what they believe to be the logical course of action
Time = Lack of motivation, indecisive
Space = Similar to earth but rather than something tangible its an ideal, concept, or institution
Mirage = what is right and just
I'm currently working on a guide for all 43 playable characters across the Sen arc and so far it looks like most fit this paradigm well (I think all of them fit the motivations part perfectly but some require some stretching to fit the personality part). As an easy example, I'll give Rean (Time/Fire). He has a lot of self-doubt, doesn't really care for his own well being, thinks of himself as a burden on others, etc, but he continues to act out of a sense of responsibility.
I havne't memorized all the colour limitations, and I'm having a hell of a time finding a page that lists them, but from what I remember, it seems to be pretty accurate. One thing to consider is if the placements of the colour limitations mean something too, or are they static? I'm not sure if they're always in the same place or if they are not. Say, what are Sharon's colours again? I forget.
The double slotted element corresponds to the dominant personality trait of the character whereas the single slotted element is what motivates them. If you read through any of the new theories (mostly Latte's and mine), a pretty common theme is that the lower elements correspond to the Tarot variation of the Greek alchemical system of elements (Fire=Spirit, Earth=Body, Wind=Mind, Water=Emotions).
This is pretty good. Until now I only tried to see how their Crafts fitted with their elemental restrictions, but this seems like a nice angle.
Only caveat I have is corresponding personality/motivation trait with the Time Element. My Hindu lore isn't really up to snuff, but I feel it's little of a stretch to ascribe doubt and depression to Shiva the Destroyer. Or indecisiveness for that matter.
Sharon is double Time and single Mirage. If we go with the personality traits, this would fit perfectly if the elements were reversed to the current theory. As a super-maid, her life revolves around being helpful to the Reinford family and associates. She is shown to be very nice (if prone to teasing) and her romance with Anton even reveals her innocence in matters of the heart. The indecisiveness of her Time element reflects her status of an Enforcer on 'standby' and even fits the upright pattern of the Hermit Arcana that is associated with her number. If we go with Time as dominant personality trait though, the only thing that fits is doubt and Mirage doesn't fly with me. Sharon is mainly motivated by her duty and love to the Reinfords, not what is just and right.
As far as I can see, the main Class VII characters (including new Class VII) all fit the pattern, but it starts to become shaky with the characters rarely used. Alfin is double Fire and single Space. Space fits if she considers herself a protector of Erebonia's peace/prosperity as a member of the Imperial Family, but I'm not sure about Fire. She never struck me as either stubborn or uncompromising and while she's certainly strong-willed, she does too little in the story to stand out among characters who also display strength of will without Fire attributed to them.
Angelica is also problematic. Double Space works, but single Time? She neither suffers from indecisiveness nor lack of motivation. In fact, I consider her a character whose defining strength is her decisiveness.
Toval is double Wind and single Space. A protector of the Bracer Guild, I can easily see. But aloof? air-headed? Even introspective seems a stretch. From what we see in the games, he would fit Earth or Mirage more. A nice person who is also quick to act.
I don't think that the characters have to fit ALL of the aspects of said personality traits/motivations, just one. So Sharon for example, the doubt does count. Mirage as a motivating factor, well. Sharon is still a mystery as of CS3, I don't know if these things are answered in 4, have you played 4? Just curious. Even then... (CS3 spoiler)
Again for Alfin, you do not need all 3 personality traits, just 1 I think. So yeah, she's strong-willed Probably kind of stubborn to by the way she dodges the whole first dance fiasco.
Space motivation makes sense to me for Angelica too. Yeah she is kind of spontaneous and just goes ahead and does whatever she wants when she wants it. But it doesn't seem like she has decided on any long-term goals for herself. She knows she doesn't want to be an ordinary noble lady but Doesn't seem like she has any commitments beyond not having her fate determined by others. Even her flirting nature. she can't commit to a single significant other, she just goes around and takes it all in that regard.
Toval doesn't seem to make sense to me either in-game. But it seems to make more sense in Carnelia
I don't think that the characters have to fit ALL of the aspects of said personality traits/motivations, just one. So Sharon for example, the doubt does count.
This isn't just about personality traits, but dominant ones. Things like doubt, being strong-willed, being nice are relatively general traits that a lot of characters share or that a single character often displays alongside more distinct ones like air-headedness or aloofness. Picking one trait out of many that kinda fits just because it's the corresponding elemental value is bending the facts to match the theory, if there is another element that simply fits better. Yes, doubt certainly plays a part in Sharon's characterization, but I would argue that her helpfulness as a maid as well as the innocence that is caused by her background are far more dominant to her characterization shown until now.
Or let's take Rean, who I think fits this theory really well. I could argue that he is double element Earth, because as the unofficial leader of Class VII, he needs to be a doer. (As an aside, both Estelle and Lloyd are double Element Earth) In CS1 he is the first (and only) guy to resolve the major classmate conflicts. He is also the one who often comes up with daring plans on the fly or pushes for them to be executed. But I have no problem with double element Time, because his self-doubt is tied to his crushing lack of self-worth which is absolutely central to his entire character arc. So much in fact, that quite some Western fans (can't speak for the Japanese ones) disliked him for all his supposed 'angst' until CS2 and thought that he should simply get over himself. That for me is a dominant trait.
Toval doesn't seem to make sense to me either in-game. But it seems to make more sense in Carnelia
The problem with Carnelia is that it's a novel with him being the POV. Compared to the way he's shown in the game, he will appear more introspective (which fits Wind), simply because the narrative medium used lends itself to a more introspective way of story-telling. If I want to stretch it, I could say that his tendency to change identity in order to properly do his smuggling job is an extension of his inability or unwillingness to establish lasting relationships or commit to obligations - so we have aloofness.
But the funny thing is that his secondary element throws a wrench into the whole issue. If we go with his Carnelia characterization, then he kinda fits Wind but doesn't fit Space anymore. His lack of commitment to human bonds or obligations, him being a drifter until a fateful encounter with a certain sister is diametrically opposed to the main motivation of wanting to protect something. And the moment he finds a path in life he wants to commit to, namely the Bracer path, he starts to fit Space but pretty much loses his distinctive Wind trait.
As for Angelica, her single element is Time, not Space. So her main motivation is supposedly a lack of motivation or indecisiveness which I simply don't see. A lack of commitment, as you are arguing with her flirtations, doesn't equate a lack of motivation. A person can make the conscious decision not to commit to close romantic relationships. As a result, such a person remains emotionally aloof to a certain degree, but that isn't the same as being without motivation at all. There are people who chase sexual flings as a means of escape or to avoid making hard decisions and if Angelica were a less grounded person, I would follow such an interpretation. The problem is that her friendship with Towa, George and Crow grounds her. As a result, these flirtations are more a hobby or affectation in my opinion.
Now let's list all the instances when she's shown to be decisive. We know from George that she worked as a miner in Sachsen. That doesn't strike me as the action of a person without motivation or decisiveness. And even if that motivation was something as shallow as youthful rebellion. Besides, given the admiration of the miner NPCs in Sachsen, she didn't just do the job a few days and quit shortly after but actually persevered in face of the hard work. Then there's that little rebellion she incited right under the nose of her father in CS2. The nun disguise, making part of the Nortia Provincial Army defect to her side and leading those men. Even acquiring Panzer Soldats and preparing a Spiegel specifically to use alongside her Taito Fist. These actions are much in line with someone who is passionate and even creative (Double Space) and they also lead to a very specific goal, namely punting her dad to make him see sense. But it runs diametrically opposed to the Time Element's 'lack of motivation'.
I agree with you that she didn't decide on a long-term goal, but in my opinion it's unfair to make this out to be her fault or using this as a guideline for her supposed indecisiveness. For me this has the ring of an unrealistic standard that she (or any other person) can only fail. Angelica has the unfortunate fate of having the wrong gender in the eyes of the nobility. If she were a man, Marquis Rogner would probably be very happy with most of her abilities and aptitude, but the reality of the situation is that strong societal forces try to push her into a corset that doesn't fit her and which she doesn't want to fit. And these forces are at least during CS1 and 2 stronger than her. Rebelling against them is already plenty and she is arguably getting progress come CS3. What more is she supposed to do?
Darkness is associated with Shiva. The personality traits are basically what I would consider personal darkness. Lack of direction or focus makes sense for motivation because you literally cannot see where you are going in pure darkness. Lack of motivation really means lack of clear motivation. It more or less means that they person still hasn't found their source of motivation or is still looking for it. They act on based on whims rather than clearly defined reasons. Angelica fits this description well especially considering she traveled the continent not once but twice on journeys of self-discovery.
Single Mirage just means you are a moral absolutist. What those morals are need not be traditional. Sharon's devotion to the Reinford family is almost religious in nature rather than just simply wanting to protecting them.
At the suggestion of Latte in the Falcom Discord server, I'm making some changes to fire and earth's personalities.
Earth = stubborn, unmoving, perseverence
Fire = Strongwilled, Reckless, independent
I feel like this better fits the idea of an Immovable Wall vs. an Unrelenting Force and the 14 double fire or earth characters.
As for the other comments, Alfin is double fire/single mirage not single space. Space doesn't necessarily mean a protector literally. It means they follow or uphold an ideal or higher concept rather than something tangible.
Another interesting change is Jusis who has his slots flipped from CS2 to CS3 which I interpret as a change in responsibility from student to leader.
So I've thought about this a great deal. Rather than simple Personality vs. Motivation, I think its external vs. internal self which would encompass personality vs. motivation since personality is your external self and motivations are derived from your internal self.
This makes double mirage the scariest thing for a character to have. It means that they give off the appearance of goodness or innocence but internally could be much less ignorant or even downright evil.
Well, the Orion sisters are double mirage. Whether that makes them scary is another matter, but the potential you describe is frightening.
I did some digging about Shiva and after that I'm even more of the opinion that the personality traits ascribed to the Time element is the weakest link in the chain. I went through wikipedia and the New World Encyclopedia, but when it comes to the Trimurti, they mention Shiva as a force of destruction, how he probably became conflated with Agni (the fire god), Indra (God of Thunder, War etc) or Rudra (God of Storms), but I certainly didn't find any reference to 'darkness', which is too vague of a term in my opinion anyway. What's also emphasized is that the destruction needs to be viewed in a positive light, namely to prune things or concepts that has become obsolete so new things can be created to take the place. There is a never-ending circle running from creation, to preservation and destruction and back.
The problem I see with despair, depression and doubt being the sole attributes of Time is that they run counter to the above mentioned circle, because all these traits just like indecisiveness and lack of (clear) motivation are paralytic in nature. They embody stagnation (which is certainly an aspect of Time arts in Kiseki), but I think for Time to make more sense, a positive aspect (trait) needs to be added, for the destruction embodied by Shiva is a transformative force.
One character who represents the whole spectrum of the Time Element is Joshua. Depression and despair over what happened in Hamel, causing him to become catatonic. The reworking of his psyche by Weissmann to make him function again as an empty assassin doll (the first transformation), then his life with the Brights which ushers his second transformation. There's all the doubts, self-delusions etc that happens in FC and SC until his second transformation back into a 'proper human being' finally sticks. Yotaka already did his tarot reading and the upright Death Arcana has parallels to the transformative destruction of Shiva. Something ends, so something new can begin.
It also contrasts well with the clarification on the motivational force of Mirage. Moral absolutists are fixated on maintaining the status quo of whatever they consider just and right which fits well with Vishnu the Preserver. Shiva stands in contrast as the destroyer or disruptor of said status quo.
Sharon as a double Time element would share part of Joshua's character arc by going through a similar transformative process herself, though doubt still plays a crucial part with her, too. Then there's also double Time element Crow, who never struck me as particularly depressed or wrecked with doubt (though there was certainly a period of despair back in his past), but his CS1 to CS2 self is ruled by his desire for revenge on Osborne which he also considers a necessary step to transform Erebonia's political climate into something less volatile. Rebellion, revolution, shaking the status quo, transformation through death.
That's also why Angelica's single Time element still irks me. Yes, I get it with her journey of self-discovery, but different than Rean who went to Thors for his own brand of self-discovery, Angelica never struck me as having the kind of urgency Rean displays. She seems to feel at peace with the cards life dealt her (at least post CS2) and I get the impression that her continental journey by itself was the destination. Basically, she would be the first to admit that she lacks clear motivation, but her reaction would be akin to: "So what? I live life my way." Just like Crow's rebellious goal, Angelica seems motivated by being rebellious or obstinate on principle, though said rebellion is admittedly less directed.
Our two friendly neighborhood Jaegers can also be viewed through the lens of destructive transformation. Both Fie and Randy are single element Time, they both go through a phase of indecisiveness and lack of motivation after they (brutally) part with the Jaeger lifestyle, but they also end up breaking the old Jaeger mold either by becoming a Bracer or a Police Officer/Military instructor.
I personally am not fixating on the example-words used to associate the colours (and am not focused on if they sound negative or positive), but rather I kind of used them to get a concept in my head for each one that may not be conveyed or articulated perfectly. That being said I can't really think of any examples that are just down right not compatible with this theory if I try to interpret it certain ways, which normally, I can find incorrect examples for things in general instantly. Like when people say such and such, I'm that guy who will instantly go 'well actually...' and throw an exception or two.
You seem to want a 'good' trait in time, and I know it has nothing to do with the rest of this discussion, but l let's be realistic here, pretty much every character with time in their arcus is a badass to some extent. Yeah they may be young with a lot to learn from their elders still or something, but they seem to be decidedly more powerful/capable than their peers.
Time isn't going to have a good trait. Look at every single piece of imagery associated with the time element. Its all demons and death.
The first thing that comes up when I google "Shiva darkness" is an Indian tourism website for Mahashivratri, a celebration for Shiva on the darkest day of the year. Anyway, the literal meaning of Shiva is "that which is not" or nothingness. He is simultaneously everything and nothing (This is interesting because the other part of my theory is the Space=Omnipotence, Mirage=Omniscience, and Time=Omnipresence, the three descriptions of god). He is described as darkness because darkness is infinite and will last forever whereas as light is limited. All the universe is darkness, light merely occupies it.
Also don't think of it as just the characteristics lifted. There are plenty of dark personality traits. In the full length description, I include pushing others away or trying to keep people from getting close as well.
I merely used the search word 'Shiva', without the darkness.
And an Indian tourism website isn't exactly a legitimate source. The Wikipedia article says that the literal translation of his name (which comes from Sanskrit) is the 'auspicious one'. This claim is backstopped by three separate sources. Two of them are books written by established academics. One of them served as Professor of comparative religion and Hindu studies at Oxford, the other is the Birks Professor of Comparative Religion at McGill University, Montreal.
I'll go out on a limb and assume that you don't know Sanskrit. I don't know it either, so I'll trust the work of established academics over a spiritual tourism pamphlet. (I found the tourism website and read it btw). And even if I take the text serious, the 'darkness' that is described there isn't the kind of 'darkness' that you seem to be going for, if I look at the character traits that you want to ascribe to the Time element.
Traits like pushing people away or preventing them from getting close. Okay, now let me cite a passage of your own source.
So “Shiva” refers to both “that which is not,” and Adiyogi, because in many ways, they are synonymous. This being, who is a yogi, and that non-being, which is the basis of the existence, are the same, because to call someone a yogi means he has experienced the existence as himself. If you have to contain the existence within you even for a moment as an experience, you have to be that nothingness. Only nothingness can hold everything."
I don't see how that mixes with the 'dark' traits above.
But if I say “divine darkness,” people think I am a devil worshiper or something. In fact, in some places in the West it is being propagated that Shiva is a demon!"
Besides, I never asked for a 'good' trait. As you mentioned, Death is part of the imaginery and when I argued about destructive transformation, I specifically referred to the Tarot reading of the Death Arcana which coincides with Shiva's role in the Trimurti (which is a framework you raised). And if Yotaka is to be believed, the connection between the Tarot Arcana and the Enforcers has been confirmed in source books. Additionally, the tendency to upset the status quo or shake up established social molds, (which is part of what I'm arguing for) is usually met with pushback from the ones invested in maintaining it. And except for special situations like the middle of a revolution or a civil war, the people willing to maintain the status quo are in the majority. The nail that sticks up gets hammered down. The distinction between 'visionaries' who tear down obsolete paradigms and 'social deviants' can be paper-thin.
And just to make it clear. I consider this a really good theory. Even if I call your interpretation of the Time Element the weakest link, it's the weakest link of an otherwise strong and impressive chain. And I hope my arguments speak for themselves, but I think the 'evil' Time Element is more gray than you give it credit for.
Hmm, I actually do I like the outcast attribution to time and think it fits as an opposition to the idealistic space, but that doesn't really dismiss the other characteristics especially since outcasts tend to have a lot of depressive tendencies or internal turmoil.
It's actually interesting that you bring up the Western interpretation of Shiva because the setting is currently Western Zemuria and
But whether Time is actually evil, gray, or orange doesn't matter. Given its association with death and destruction, I can't see humanity being appreciative of whatever its role is.
I don't wanna get too deep into this but you have to have some darkness in order to master it. While the time element is often associated with demons and death and all kinds of dasterdly things, it doesn't mean that the element itself, or the use of it is evil. In fact, I can't help but notice that the vast majority of demonic/death/supernatural evil themed badguys in higher element areas are more often weak to time artes than space or mirage (well, they used to be, it's kinda evening out over time). It's possible the games just try and say that in order to master these darkness-inspired things, one develops some doubt and conflict in doing so, but they can (and often are) still heroic.
One thing I wonder though is why is the element called time. Aside from Speed down/speed up artes...they seem more death/dark/soul/demon/etc like.
I don't wanna get too deep into this but you have to have some darkness in order to master it. While the time element is often associated with demons and death and all kinds of dasterdly things, it doesn't mean that the element itself, or the use of it is evil. In fact, I can't help but notice that the vast majority of demonic/death/supernatural evil themed badguys in higher element areas are more often weak to time artes than space or mirage (well, they used to be, it's kinda evening out over time). It's possible the games just try and say that in order to master these darkness-inspired things, one develops some doubt and conflict in doing so, but they can (and often are) still heroic.
One thing I wonder though is why is the element called time. Aside from Speed down/speed up artes...they seem more death/dark/soul/demon/etc like.
The way I interpret it is that everything is finite and in time will eventually return to dust.
One thing I wonder though is why is the element called time. Aside from Speed down/speed up artes...they seem more death/dark/soul/demon/etc like.
A lot of it can be found in the Art descriptions. Basically, much of Time magic supposedly manipulates entropy, which by extension gets you to decay and death but it's just a natural process and not inherently evil. That gets you things like Death Spiral and Shadow Spear. Other Arts like Soul Blur, White Gehenna and Calamity Edge have descriptions that say they create pulses that disrupt spacetime and one of the most evil-sounding ones (Hell Gate) says that it 'causes biological processes to stagnate', being essentially accelerated entropy, hence Time.
Okay, I've got nothing for Abyss Fall ('Summons a messenger from the otherworld') but by that point we're at something like three steps removed from the original element. There's a possible explanation for it via CS4 but it's nothing Falcom has confirmed.
